Here is a PDF copy: http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/pdf/cc_4.pdf

As Tigger says, “Tata for now”

Wade

I write on this Lutheran blog as an elder in a Baptist church. This was not the first time I read the article “Conversations with Nathan”, but I enjoyed reading the article as much as I did the first time, even though I knew I might hear a few of those remarks in my own church!

There was a time when satire and hyperbole was difficult for me to read. Oh, I enjoyed it well enough when it was obvious the shoe was several sizes oversized, but when the match was close I tended to feel a little agitated! Then there came a time when I discovered that I could glean a good bit from reading the criticisms of those that were in a different environment than I. When we get mired in our own cultural and theological ruts, sometimes we get so comfortable it takes a jolt from “outside” to get us to think outside of our comfortable confinement.

While we do not wish to be a like an autumn leaf being blown about by every wind of doctrine, reading a little satire or hyperbolic expression can sometimes be helpful in dislodging us from a place of error. We should also recongnize that satire, even the witty stuff, can be written by well intended individuals who simply wish to get people to stop and think.

When I think of where I have been compared to where I am at, pondering where I might one day find myself, I find that I must sometimes laugh at my folly while admiring my intent. Then there are the times I just feel like weeping.

I would hate to see a blog entry somewhere stating I thought myself the Apostle Paul. But I am sure no one would do that.

As always, I respect your heart. Too few of us have the courage to say we are sorry. And while I was not offended, it might be good for Nathan to read your post. I pray he will.

As to your other points, again, well said! Yet, remember, if it was not for God’s guidance, we would not be in the churches and denominations we are! I have a number of dear pastor friends who serve in different denominations, yet we are able to come together in a spirit of unity. My Methodist friend must think his denomination is “better,” or else he would serve in a different denomination! Trust me; I have been the butt of a few jokes from my friends who are Charismatic pastors. I guess we all need to learn to have thick skin.

But we also need to beware of the sins of presumption and pride. We presume we are right, and take pride in that presumption! And if someone dares disagree, off to the stocks with the offender! Yet notice, Paul himself said he had not attained (Phil 3:12). If this is the case, why should we think we have?

How I look forward to the day when we will all see Christ face to face – this awesome day will be filled with shame for all as we look back to those we intentionally or unintentionally offended. I am sure there will be plenty of apologies to go around.

Also, can you imagine the pain the Lord must feel when He sees His children striving to puff themselves up, ignoring His command that we love one another? (John 13:14-35)

I think Paul had this in mind when I called for Euodia and Syntyche to stop their striving against one another and be united “in the Lord.” (Phil 4:2-3). Wouldn’t it be grand, and ever so convicting, to see our name in the Book of Life, and just below the name of one against whom we harbored ill will while on this short earthly sojourn?

May the Church be a people of unity, yet always lovingly encouraging each other to embrace more of Him, in doctrine, practice and love.

I was very disappointed to realize a day or so ago that David was not with us (in the flesh) any more. The last thing in the world I want to do is be critical of him not only because he can’t defend himself but also because it would probably be an injury to you Nathan. So for that I am sorry. I notice I seem to be apologizing a lot these days. Hmmm, oh, well. I will keep my comments generic and full of as much grace as I can get from the Lord.

James, it was great talking with you too. If we ever got out of town it would be fun to impose on you sometime. Alas, we never do get out of town so the possiblity is remote. I agree with most of your last post. Does what he says happen in some churches, sure. There is always some goofball who heads off into the wilderness with those who will follow him. While most of my large extended family (grandma had 13 kids) are devout Southern Baptists I too have had a fairly ecumenical record of church attendence during certain periods if for no other reason than to “check them out”. My issue is: does it happen in MOST evangelical or other churches. Here I would have to say no. I’m sure David Chilton had this conversation, thought it was cute and made some good points therefore he typed it up and posted it. He probably never intended for it to come under this kind of scrutiny. In the end this probably comes down to where I’ve been and what I’ve seen versus where you’ve been and what you’ve seen. Someday when we stand before the throne we too will have one of those conversations like the disciples “who was the greatest”.

The reason this touched a sore spot with me is because I feel a very definite attitude in our “reformed, paedo-communion, liturgical circles” to think that the rest of the Church has wandered off the true path and we have or are bringing her back around to the right course. In some areas I’d say we might be doing that and in other areas I think we……well, I do not think I will finish that sentence. In any case I’m sorry to see the attitude in any church or denomination that says “I bet God is glad he has us because look at those clowns down the street”. I constantly fight the tendancy within myself to think that I am the bright and shining example of a christian on planet earth. The very realization of that thought in my head brings me down a notch or two (Jesus have mercy).

My church, shallow or deep? It depends on your definitions but I’m not touching that here!

Elizabeth says she will write soon.
May God bless you, your family and church,

Wade

Corrie Says:
November 13, 2007 at 3:00 pm
” The brethren that have been built into such a formidable strawman that the brotherhood is no longer recognizable?

I recently found this little ditty that argues the same thing: http://date-dabitur.com/?page_id=290”

Cindy,

That link you sent was very eye-opening.

Is this Federal Vision teaching? Some of it sounds very much like what they teach in the FV.

Karen,

I would encourage you to send out an email with this link in it to the pastors and homeschool leaders in your area so they can see how they are viewed by those who call themselves “friend”.

I simply want to make a disclaimer about this specific article and I am asking you not to make assumptions regarding how we view our friends who disagree with us. If you want to email this piece around, then God be praised, regardless of your motives. However, emailing this around a community to imply that we view everyone a certain way would be a mischaracterisation. I don’t know whether you were speaking of this article or referring to another in your last statement, but either way that’s the type of thing I’d be sorry to see resulting.

Of course. I am not wearing it and neither do most solid, evangelical churches.

“Please don’t assume that those of us that find it humorous are laughing at others. Please don’t impute an “us vs. them” bunker mentality to Nathan or to me or to anyone that might find it funny and intriguing. That would also be a grossly exaggerated caricature, and you can throw in the rest of the thesaurus as well.”

Hmmm? I am not sure how you got that out of my few words in
agreement with Wade. Wade said the part about laughing, not me. I was agreeing with Wade’s point about the misrepresentation.

Please don’t put words or thoughts into my mouth because you are now doing to me what you rebuked me for doing (which I didn’t do). I have no idea what “bunker mentality” you are talking about but now that you have brought the subject up…….

I still stand by my original statement. This is a gross (bloated/large) and exaggerated (to represent something as greater or worse than it really is) caricature (picture/imitation) of what goes on in churches who do not do weekly communion complete with wine (vs. grape juice) and matzo/crackers (vs. bread).

I am not anti-liturgical. I think you would be very surprised to actually know what I think about the whole issue. I would probably agree with you on many of the points concerning wine, bread and the liturgy.

I don’t let it ruin my day, either. Just thought that you would like to know that there are people who read this and who also are in agreement with many of the points concerning liturgy and communion but who see this conversation as derogatory and something that doesn’t at all accurately portray what goes on in many churches.

I am the first one to speak up against flippantly celebrating the Lord’s Supper. Just as I am the first one to defend the Catholics when people totally misrepresent what they believe even though I am no longer Catholic.

“Seems its just about impossible to actually believe in something without offending somebody.”

LOL!! Exactly!!! Oh, the irony!

I especially find it funny because I am not offended by the belief that we should have liturgy, bread and wine and celebrate the Lord’s Supper weekly because I too believe those things!

Please don’t assume that those of us that find it humorous are laughing at others. Please don’t impute an “us vs. them” bunker mentality to Nathan or to me or to anyone that might find it funny and intriguing. That would also be a grossly exaggerated caricature, and you can throw in the rest of the thesaurus as well.

I think most of us that find it humorous are laughing at ourselves for the most part. I wish more people could do that. As someone that used to be anti-liturgical, I know with certaintly that this is a pretty fair representation of how I used to think/act. That doesn’t mean I view everyone else as living in a little box that I used to dwell in.

There are a few points that I disagree with in the conversation. But who agrees on every point? I don’t let it ruin my day. Seems its just about impossible to actually believe in something without offending somebody.